*** SA 295 The Helderberg Disaster ***

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Re: *** SA 295 The Helderberg Disaster***

#21

Post by Propnut » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:13 am

In reading the article, Mike lived his life to the full and beyond.  Now he can be with his daughter in peace.

:RIP:


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Re: *** SA 295 The Helderberg Disaster***

#22

Post by happyskipper » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:30 pm

Hi Meckanik - I have serious problems with the "Shoot Down" scenario as painted by your "UN op"...... in 1987 I had just completed 2 years national service as a Radar Operator in the SAAF, My father was a SAAF pilot, and I associated with SAAF and ex-SAAF pilots and commanding officers and did camps in the SAAF.  There is no way that the SAAF had the capability in 1987 to organize a "scramble" of fighter aircraft to shoot down a B747 in the time period from their take - off to the time the aircraft went down.....  We were good, but not that good, and the logistics and time factors would have been too constraining.  never mind, just trying to get permission from the necessary command structures to launch an attack on a friendly aircraft in international airspace - for whatever reason.

I put this theory into the category of "red herring" with the purpose of diverting attention from the scenarios that are, in fact, plausible.....



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Re: *** SA 295 The Helderberg Disaster***

#23

Post by Moertoe Pilut » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:15 am

Too bad legalbeagle isn't here..... Let's put things into perspective:

1) Do we agree that the CVR makes no sense?
2) Do we agree that the airplane impacted with the engines windmilling (P&W statement can be obtained from Meckanic's website)

Two questions I just want answered before moving on.


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Re: *** SA 295 The Helderberg Disaster***

#24

Post by Propnut » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:33 am

I agree with 1) as the splice type sounds are there, and the sequence of events on the take can be shown to be ongoing.

Windmilling, or spooling down?  The debris field is scattered enough to prove in my logic that the aircraft broke up in flight.  Depending at what height the connection to the engines were lost would contribute to the turbines turning or not.  The missing engine - was it from the port or starboard side?  I am trying to establish if the missing engine was on the same side of the fire.


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Re: *** SA 295 The Helderberg Disaster***

#25

Post by happyskipper » Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:37 pm

Moertoe - To answer your questions, from my perspective:

1) No the CVR makes no sense for many reasons.......
2) I'm a little lost..... do you mean that the impact damage indicates that the engines were windmilling, as in "Not developing thrust" or just that the engine was rotating, and not stopped?



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Re: *** SA 295 The Helderberg Disaster***

#26

Post by Meckanic » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:34 pm

[quote="happyskipper"]
Hi Meckanik - I have serious problems with the "Shoot Down" scenario as painted by your "UN op"...... in 1987 I had just completed 2 years national service as a Radar Operator in the SAAF, My father was a SAAF pilot, and I associated with SAAF and ex-SAAF pilots and commanding officers and did camps in the SAAF.  There is no way that the SAAF had the capability in 1987 to organize a "scramble" of fighter aircraft to shoot down a B747 in the time period from their take - off to the time the aircraft went down.....  We were good, but not that good, and the logistics and time factors would have been too constraining.  never mind, just trying to get permission from the necessary command structures to launch an attack on a friendly aircraft in international airspace - for whatever reason.

I put this theory into the category of "red herring" with the purpose of diverting attention from the scenarios that are, in fact, plausible.....
[/quote]

I have a serious problem with the shootdown scenario as well. The logistics and planning for an SAAF strike would have taken too much planning at least 24 hours ahead of time, which would indicate the plane was to be taken down before it even left Taiwan. However, I talked to a military AC FE till 4am the other morning (we play guitar/keyboards together). I laid out the entire scenario for him and he said it could be done with limited information control by a US carrier. Outside of a request from SA minister of defense and Pik Botha (Foreign Affairs), only six other people would have to know what was going on. The Captain, the Flight Deck Boss, one maintenance. couple of guys in control/radar and one pilot. He said they could set it up to appear as a night training mission. Most of the planes have 4 HSM's, a maintenance guy would just have to "bang" into one of the mounts so that it would give an error. Pilot radios in and tells ship control they are getting one helluva lot of vibration and are going to dump the HSM's as they are showing the error. Use one of the HSM's on the Helderberg, dump the rest and go back to the carrier. Inspection/maintenance sees the damaged mount, story looks good. The only question would be, was there continuous military flight tracking from the aircraft carrier back in 1987? If there was, could it be covered up?

Anyway, it's a possible scenario I suppose, but I still have problems with it as I don't have enough facts from a US FOIA. Which leads me to another strange situation, the US FOIA office sent me two cubic feet of data back in 2010 concerning the Helderberg. That data ended up at my post office where it was either "lost" or as the post office states, "was sent back." I checked with the FOIA office in the US and it never showed up back there. The FOIA request I made was looking for records from the CIA, US State Department, US Dept. of the Navy, Diego Garcia records and Military satellite/evasdropping platform information concerning the Helderberg. The girl at the FOIA office confirmed that there were written statements in the box from US Navy Seals, CIA ops, etc. as well as audio records and all the redacted "standard" documentation. So apparently a great deal of information exists on the US end of things but somehow gets diverted or screwed up once in Canada.

I would suggest that anyone who has the time and ability, do your own FOIA requests with US, Taiwan and South African governments, see if the data shows up on your doorstep, because it did on mine, only to be returned or "disappeared" before I could even get close to it.

Cheers - Meckanic


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Re: *** SA 295 The Helderberg Disaster***

#27

Post by Propnut » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:21 am

That data ended up at my post office where it was either "lost" or as the post office states, "was sent back." I checked with the FOIA office in the US and it never showed up back there.


I remember your post on the other forum when you were going to ask for this information.  The wheel of fortune does turn, though sometimes slowly.  Reading your latest post Meckanic, I cannot shake the thought that even now, years after SA295 was downed, there are so many agencies worldwide still playing an active part in trying to cover up whatever took place during that fateful flight.  This clearly illustrated by your missing package.


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Re: *** SA 295 The Helderberg Disaster***

#28

Post by happyskipper » Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:51 pm

Well, I can certainly believe that, Meckanik - because even stranger things have happened.....
My question is, why would anyone want to shoot down the Helderberg?

The bottom line is that the aircraft experienced a fire, for some or other reason.  The aircraft impacted the sea, and all on board perished.

The outstanding questions are (in my opinion):

Why did the tape from ZUR disappear?  (The only ZUR tape ever to have been mislaid/overtaped/lost) happens to be the one that could, perhaps, shed light on the disaster.

Why was the CVR recovered, and not the FDR?  (Similar sizes and shapes - stowed in the same area on opposite sides of the aircraft aft section).

Why did the FE delegation get told to desist by Judge Margo?

Why were the initial S&R aircraft get sent to the wrong search area?

Why was the first SA S&R aircraft delayed due to waiting for Armscor and Military personnel to board?

Why were two SAAF cargo aircraft sent to MRU with Puma helicopters to search and recover wreckage (with more military and Armscor on board) when it was a civilian airliner that crashed?

Why is everyone who was involved so manure scared to come out and speak about it?

Why did the SAA Ops (ZUR) personnel lie and say that there was no other means of contacting SA295, when their selcal went down?  (I had used SAA's Selcal on more than one occasion to contact our aircraft, when our selcal was u/s.  The ZUR staff should have been fully aware that at least one other airline at FAJS had selcal facilities).

And so on...............



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Re: *** SA 295 The Helderberg Disaster***

#29

Post by Meckanic » Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:16 am

[quote="happyskipper"]
Well, I can certainly believe that, Meckanik - because even stranger things have happened.....
My question is, why would anyone want to shoot down the Helderberg?

The bottom line is that the aircraft experienced a fire, for some or other reason.  The aircraft impacted the sea, and all on board perished.
[/quote]

Shootdown or incendiary bomb, here's a list of possibilities;

1. Colonel Jordaan (Chief of Counterintelligence for the Angolan Operational Theatre was supposed to be on board.
2. TB Osler, a known MI/CI asset was on board.
3. An engineer very posssibly involved (unknowingly) in the design of Machel False VOR Beacon technology was on board.
4. Materials destined for Atlas Aircraft for a weapon that would have given us air superiority were on board (Colonel Jordaan's trip).
5. Insurance materials for HSM's and AIMS were on board for PMP Detonics and Somchem.

Here's a list of reasons;

1. Colonel Jordaan was not only handling the oversight of the purchases of materials, he was also the creator of the program at Atlas for the EMP cannon. I was just the R&D guy that came up with the idea and showed them how to make the beast, he put it all in motion. A targeted EMP weapon would have allowed us to take down any Mig (any hostile plane) we wanted at any time which would have changed the political spectrum of sub-Sahara Africa. This would have also made other countries very nervous, so it had to be stopped. The "unfinished" (prototype) technology was sold to the US in trade partially for SA management and inclusion with US arms deals with Iraq (Saddam in 1988/89) which made a couple of ministers very rich, one of them is still alive.
2. I am not sure what TB Osler was doing on the flight, so I'd simply speculate that another senior handler was required.
3. In 1986 Samora Machel's plane was taken down by the SA government using a False VOR beacon. I only have this information based on what Andre Jordaan told me and what another unrelated party (to me) told me concerning people on site and the engineer on the plane. Thing is, all their stories match and the two guys were on the same recon crew for the Machel take down. The engineer involved with a US company and the Israeli's was on the Helderberg according to another party.
4. Refer to 1.
5. The ammonium perchlorate mix was for use as propellant for heat seeking and AIM missiles. Two Armscor supplier companies were going to be used for testing and replication of the mix, PMP Detonics and Somchem. What better way to fashion an incendiary "bomb" than have the material knowingly put on the plane as military materials for test and replication during an arms embargo?

The Helderberg was a pretty "sweet" target for someone working against SA interests, like the ANC, IMF, UN or Oppenheimer wouldn't you say? Don't forget the potential connections to Hammarskjold and Vorwoerd and the UN/IMF. This rabbit hole goes pretty far and very deep.

The outstanding questions are (in my opinion):

Why did the tape from ZUR disappear?  (The only ZUR tape ever to have been mislaid/overtaped/lost) happens to be the one that could, perhaps, shed light on the disaster.

Now that's a really good question, Mike was working on that angle and he had nothing nice to say about the SAA or Crown Travel. I should dig up my old emails and post them, but they are pretty graphic and filled with expletives.
Why was the CVR recovered, and not the FDR?  (Similar sizes and shapes - stowed in the same area on opposite sides of the aircraft aft section).

You can replicate the CVR (and put it back in place), the FDR is a lot more difficult, My understanding is that the CIA and Navy SEALS salvaged the necessary items. You have to remember that Diego Garcia would have known exactly where the plane went down and they know the ocean currents. In additon, sat platforms were active at the time, the US military knew what was on the plane (attache from the US via the PRC) and had to keep track of the p239, so that it could be recorvered. The only reason the fissile material came from offshore was that we were still under nuclear dissarmament audits by the US and any activity from Pelindaba/Velinda would have thrown out warning flags to the wrong US departments. That would have thrown a bit of a hitch in the "game."
Why did the FE delegation get told to desist by Judge Margo?

Margo wouldn't want to have a little thing like the facts get in the way of his employer's spin now, would he?
Why were the initial S&R aircraft get sent to the wrong search area?

To give the US time to get the materials off the ocean floor. This has been the concern that I have heard from the master of the original SRO team.
Why was the first SA S&R aircraft delayed due to waiting for Armscor and Military personnel to board?

It was known that it was a "hot site" because military weapons/contraband were involved during a weapons embargo and Magnus knew that, so the SADF was automatically involved? It was all about control of the information, national security, national disgrace, etc. and there was a lot of pressure from the IMF and UN at that time, so any kind of embarrassment for the government would have given the UN and IMF an additional lever. It didn't help that Oppenheimer ("the engine behind the ANC") was working against us from the inside.
Why were two SAAF cargo aircraft sent to MRU with Puma helicopters to search and recover wreckage (with more military and Armscor on board) when it was a civilian airliner that crashed?

See last answer above plus part of the cargo was military/CI/Armscor related.
Why is everyone who was involved so manure scared to come out and speak about it?

Short bit of history, the Canadian Admin Consul in Pretoria, Adrian Brazeau, after reading my nine page document on "nasty business" with the SA government and military told me point blank that "I was a dead man walking, I just didn't know it yet" and that he didn't know why I was still alive. He told me they wouldn't help me get my family out of SA, but if I was dead and my family happened to still be alive, they would help whoever was left. Brazeau even knew they targeted family members or just considered them collateral damage. I remember the old days well, I certainly remember the lengths the military would go to, to shut people up permanently. At one point Jordaan asked me to make a little radio controlled eavesdropping device that would pump 100kv+ at 250ma+ through a phone line for those scientists on military projects who "spoke out of turn." Needless to say, I didn't say much in SA, lest my own toys be used against me.
Why did the SAA Ops (ZUR) personnel lie and say that there was no other means of contacting SA295, when their selcal went down?  (I had used SAA's Selcal on more than one occasion to contact our aircraft, when our selcal was u/s.  The ZUR staff should have been fully aware that at least one other airline at FAJS had selcal facilities).

And so on...............


Again, containment of information. Saying it wasn't working is easy to say. I am quite sure they had a stock strategy for airlines carrying embargoed materials. This was a national security situation that could have involved the detonation of nuclear material in another country. It could have happened anywhere once the plane took off and tried to land. By limiting the information, the military/government could make up any story they wanted and who could question it, where would you get the hard evidence to say otherwise? This is pretty much exactly what the SA government and military did and eventually all those involved (the ones who weren't killed in 1987/88) that could shed light on the entire catastrophe will all eventually die off, either naturally or otherwise.

Any spelling mistakes, sorry, I tried to write this in a hurry.

Cheers - Meckanic


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Re: *** SA 295 The Helderberg Disaster***

#30

Post by Moertoe Pilut » Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:15 pm

The way I read/understand the P&W report is that the engines were not "operating" at the time they impacted, IE windmilling. That suggests to me also that the airplane broke up in flight. The reason behind my "idiotic thinking" is:

1) An engine would only shut down if the fuel shut off valve was closed (start lever or fire handle, or maybe from the F/E panel)
2) An engine would only shut down if it was deprived of fuel (engine separation, no more fuel supply even with fuel shut off valve open)

I don't think the crew would shut down all 4 engines, even if they would consider to ditch the airplane (not a QRH procedure in any Boeing aircraft I have flown)...... If the airplane broke up in flight, the engines would have probably separated from the pylons which obviously would result in a flame out.

Even if the fire would have consumed the "throttle cables" the engines wouldn't flame out as the FCU would keep the engine at the same settings, you just wouldn't have control over the thrust settings. The burning of the cables (if this happened) would not cause the engine(s) to shut down, as that would require the closing of the Fuel Shut Off valve (electrically, Hot Battery Bus if I'm not mistaking).

I don't believe the shoot down theory at all. I believe the airplane burned up in flight, by what I don't know, but definitely not by materials (dangerous goods) allowed by IATA.


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Re: *** SA 295 The Helderberg Disaster***

#31

Post by Propnut » Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:29 am

Thanks for that reply Moertoe, I have now a little nor information in my internal database.


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Re: *** SA 295 The Helderberg Disaster***

#32

Post by happyskipper » Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:32 am

Ok, so here we have the crux of the matter.

The aircraft probably broke up in flight, either from a sudden, very intense fire that destroyed structural integrity, or from a fire that started shortly after reaching cruising altitude, then reignited on the descent........

Either of these scenarios are difficult to contemplate, but the theory of two fires, and the implications that Capt. Uys chose to continue flying after a devastating fire had broken out on board, is especially disturbing.  Whether the crew were coerced into continuing the flight (By someone standing in the ZUR ops room - hence the missing tape), or whether they chose to continue due to some sort of cargo that would cause serious problems if they landed in some country not particularly friendly to South Africans).

The whole scenario surrounding this crash, the botched investigation, and the lies and half-truths that were uttered during the investigation seem absolutely unbelievable - today.  But remembering the very secretive and restricted police state that we lived in in 1987, it is not that unbelievable..........



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Re: *** SA 295 The Helderberg Disaster***

#33

Post by Moertoe Pilut » Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:28 pm

From what the 3 F/E's have told me is that only the Captain would have known about the cargo onboard. They also told me they know illegal stuff had been moved around on those Taipei flights but they don't know what. There's a lot of good info/original documents on Meckanic's site, read the P&W report....


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Re: *** SA 295 The Helderberg Disaster***

#34

Post by happyskipper » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:13 pm

Well - this thread seems to be stagnating - so I'll stoke the fire a bit.

The results of the Poll -
100% of the voters agreed that the investigation was flawed.  (Yes, I know, 1 person, out of 12, voted that the investigation was "thoroughly and professionally done", but that was ME, under a pseudonym, in an effort to draw out anyone else who thought that, but was doubtful about saying so, due to the consensus).

75% agree that the "...investigation was flawed, by lies, incompetence and cover-ups"  whilst the other 16.6% still believed that there were problems with the outcome, even if they were convinced that it was as truthful as possible......

What does this tell us........ well, coming from Aviation professionals, Enthusiasts and people with an above-average understanding of aviation, I think we can say that the Helderberg Investigation was, and is, a huge fraud.  A cover up and an insult to those who died aboard that aircraft, as well as their surviving relatives and friends.

I have in my possession a short documentary, titled "Passenger X" which deals with the Helderberg Disaster, and which features the Forensic Scientist, Dr, David Klatzow.  This will be posted to youtube shortly (just awaiting Dr. Klatzow's permission) and when it is, I will direct you to it's address....... very interesting......

Please, people, lets keep this topic alive, so that those who participated in this disgusting cover-up will be forced to divulge the truth, either through conscience, or through legal means......... 



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Re: *** SA 295 The Helderberg Disaster***

#35

Post by Moertoe Pilut » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:21 pm

I'm awaiting your youtube video eagerly!  :utheman:


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Re: *** SA 295 The Helderberg Disaster***

#36

Post by Raffles » Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:15 am

[quote="happyskipper"]
Well - this thread seems to be stagnating - so I'll stoke the fire a bit.

The results of the Poll -
100% of the voters agreed that the investigation was flawed.  (Yes, I know, 1 person, out of 12, voted that the investigation was "thoroughly and professionally done", but that was ME, under a pseudonym, in an effort to draw out anyone else who thought that, but was doubtful about saying so, due to the consensus).

75% agree that the "...investigation was flawed, by lies, incompetence and cover-ups"  whilst the other 16.6% still believed that there were problems with the outcome, even if they were convinced that it was as truthful as possible......

What does this tell us........ well, coming from Aviation professionals, Enthusiasts and people with an above-average understanding of aviation, I think we can say that the Helderberg Investigation was, and is, a huge fraud.  A cover up and an insult to those who died aboard that aircraft, as well as their surviving relatives and friends.

I have in my possession a short documentary, titled "Passenger X" which deals with the Helderberg Disaster, and which features the Forensic Scientist, Dr, David Klatzow.  This will be posted to youtube shortly (just awaiting Dr. Klatzow's permission) and when it is, I will direct you to it's address....... very interesting......

Please, people, lets keep this topic alive, so that those who participated in this disgusting cover-up will be forced to divulge the truth, either through conscience, or through legal means.........
[/quote]

Keep us informed HS.


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Re: *** SA 295 The Helderberg Disaster***

#37

Post by Frikkie » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:43 pm

Is it true that Rennie van Zyl took the box to Washington and opened and listens it together with  FAA, MTSB people?

Is there somewhere more video`s out there except on Youtube, the reconstruction,



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Re: *** SA 295 The Helderberg Disaster***

#38

Post by Moertoe Pilut » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:50 pm

First of all welcome Frikkie :welcome:

[quote="Frikkie"]
Is it true that Rennie van Zyl took the box to Washington and opened and listens it together with  FAA, MTSB people?
[/quote]

From what I've read (I'll try to find it for you) the CVR was first taken to SAA's lab and from there it went to Washington with Rennie.... I don't know if there's more footage available, maybe HS or Meckanic can help you with that.


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Re: *** SA 295 The Helderberg Disaster***

#39

Post by Moertoe Pilut » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:17 pm

From the official SACAA accident report:

After the CVR was found it was handled with great care and all possible precautions were taken to ensure that the recorded information would be retained. To prevent the formation of air bubbles on the tape and hence a deposit of sea water chemicals, the transfer from the lifting tackle to the transport container was performed under the water. Once on board the ship the sea water was replaced with de-ionised water whilst ensuring non-entry of air into the recorder unit. Ice made from de-ionised water was progressively added to maintain the temperature within the range of 4 to 12°C. The CVR, in the transport container, was then flown to the Operator's suitably equipped laboratory for removal of the tape. All metal tools used for this process were de-magnetised. The tape was removed with the unit submerged in deionised water and cleaned in such water by winding it from one reel to another after which it was dried in a vacuum chamber with periodic nitrogen purging. After drying the tape was hand carried to a NTSB laboratory in Washington DC for copying and analysis


You make of that what you want, it just raises even more suspicion with me.....


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Re: *** SA 295 The Helderberg Disaster***

#40

Post by Frikkie » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:25 pm

Well in Renies own words if it was he talking he said that they took the sealed black box to Washington and opened it there.
He did that cause otherwise there would be allegations of cover up, etc...


[quote="Moertoe Pilut"]
From the official SACAA accident report:

After the CVR was found it was handled with great care and all possible precautions were taken to ensure that the recorded information would be retained. To prevent the formation of air bubbles on the tape and hence a deposit of sea water chemicals, the transfer from the lifting tackle to the transport container was performed under the water. Once on board the ship the sea water was replaced with de-ionised water whilst ensuring non-entry of air into the recorder unit. Ice made from de-ionised water was progressively added to maintain the temperature within the range of 4 to 12°C. The CVR, in the transport container, was then flown to the Operator's suitably equipped laboratory for removal of the tape. All metal tools used for this process were de-magnetised. The tape was removed with the unit submerged in deionised water and cleaned in such water by winding it from one reel to another after which it was dried in a vacuum chamber with periodic nitrogen purging. After drying the tape was hand carried to a NTSB laboratory in Washington DC for copying and analysis


You make of that what you want, it just raises even more suspicion with me.....
[/quote]



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