Late cancellation of STAR (FAJS), what's the point?

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Moertoe Pilut
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Late cancellation of STAR (FAJS), what's the point?

#1

Postby Moertoe Pilut » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:26 am

I've noticed in the last couple of months, arriving late into FAJS, that ATC initially clears us for the AVAGO STAR and then later cancels it with a shortcut radar vector. They then realize the airplane is too high and cancels the TMA speed restriction. My question is what's the point behind this??

When arriving into FAJS, one plans for a STAR with speed restrictions and therefor plans his/her descend accordingly. By canceling the STAR, the track miles get shortened and the descend profile is out of the picture. That's all fine and great, but how does ATC expect the airplane to start the approach (in a stable condition) when a crew is running out of track miles and still has a lot of height to loose?

The 737-200 and the 727-100 for that matter, have the most useless speed brakes, they are pretty much ineffective. Most crews will dive down at 300 IAS with the speed brakes deployed in the hope to get down fast. Unfortunately that doesn't work that well on a B732 because the airplane will eat up track miles fast and does not want to slow down. Even with the speed brakes deployed, slowing down from 300IAS to 235IAS for flap extension will take about 8 miles....

Not only does the whole thing create an extra workload for a crew, it also creates passenger discomfort. Pitching down 10 degrees nose down and speed brakes deployed is not a comfortable feeling in the cabin. Airlines teach SOP's not only for safety but also for passenger comfort...

I'm not trying to attack ATC, but I would just like to make you guys/girls aware of the implications of a late STAR cancellation..Either make us fly the whole STAR or cancel the STAR upon initial contact. If for any reasons the STAR does have to be cancelled, please let us know track miles to touch down, so we can "make a plan".
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Re: Late cancellation of STAR (FAJS), what's the point?

#2

Postby Joeatc » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:00 pm

Good point Moertoe, I hope someone has seen this and improved matters.

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Re: Late cancellation of STAR (FAJS), what's the point?

#3

Postby Moertoe Pilut » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:09 pm

No unfortunately they haven't... I have given up and just play along and will tell them if we're unable. Had an episode a while back when we were kept very high and had around 15Nm's to the threshold. It was a trainee and I just asked him if he was kidding. Unfortunately most of the good guys are slowly but surely leaving the country getting higher paid jobs elsewhere....Not that this country realises that or even cares....

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Re: Late cancellation of STAR (FAJS), what's the point?

#4

Postby Joeatc » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:14 pm

Ja I know. There is another one coming here in the new year too but I'll show this to him and maybe you will see a change before he leaves. :music:

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Re: Late cancellation of STAR (FAJS), what's the point?

#5

Postby Moertoe Pilut » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:25 pm

I like Oom Schalk, calm and relaxed, I don't think there's anything in the world that could bother that man :thumbs:

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Re: Late cancellation of STAR (FAJS), what's the point?

#6

Postby Snor » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:08 pm

Is Heyneke coaching ATNS?

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Re: Late cancellation of STAR (FAJS), what's the point?

#7

Postby Bell 407 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:15 pm

Snor, there you are. Was wondeting where you had been. Commenting again on aviation I see :haha:

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Re: Late cancellation of STAR (FAJS), what's the point?

#8

Postby Moertoe Pilut » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:18 pm

Snor wrote:Is Heyneke coaching ATNS?
Ai ai :wacko: No snor he's coaching SAA, don't you read newspapers?

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Re: Late cancellation of STAR (FAJS), what's the point?

#9

Postby Bell 407 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:29 pm

That explains now why I often hear on the radio "How many track miles to run?" As that inevitably means that the STAR got cancelled and they are figuring out how to lose altitude and reduce speed.

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Re: Late cancellation of STAR (FAJS), what's the point?

#10

Postby 87Juliet » Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:18 pm

Have you okes not seen "Space Cowboys"?

Just pour on the brakes a bit more....

[Joke Off]


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Re: Late cancellation of STAR (FAJS), what's the point?

#11

Postby Moertoe Pilut » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:08 pm

It's not so much like putting the brakes on. One has to follow company SOP's and have to think about passenger comfort. When they cancel the STAR on me, I ask for "how many track miles to touch down". With that I can make a plan or tell ATC that we're unable. It's very unfortunate that we're loosing the good people to overseas.

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Re: Late cancellation of STAR (FAJS), what's the point?

#12

Postby 87Juliet » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:02 am

Moertoe Pilut wrote:It's not so much like putting the brakes on. One has to follow company SOP's and have to think about passenger comfort. When they cancel the STAR on me, I ask for "how many track miles to touch down". With that I can make a plan or tell ATC that we're unable. It's very unfortunate that we're loosing the good people to overseas.


Munti, I completely get it... Was reading through the thread and the first thing that popped into my head was the scenes in Space Cowboys.


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Re: Late cancellation of STAR (FAJS), what's the point?

#13

Postby Bell 407 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:31 am

87Juliet wrote:Munti, I completely get it... Was reading through the thread and the first thing that popped into my head was the scenes in Space Cowboys.

Such a cool scene as the jets go flying past the windows :haha:

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Re: Late cancellation of STAR (FAJS), what's the point?

#14

Postby Joeatc » Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:58 am

Noticed any improvement there guys....Moertoe...anyone?

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Re: Late cancellation of STAR (FAJS), what's the point?

#15

Postby Bell 407 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:11 am

Joeatc wrote:Noticed any improvement there guys....Moertoe...anyone?

OK, from a layman's perspective, I have noticed that ATC on first contact out of Botswana have cancelled the STAR on first contact and advised to route Juliet Sierra Zero One Six for example on a number of occasions of late.

Now this does cut out the STAR completely and gives a shorter routing, but I'm can't comment if this was done during periods when aircraft activity has been low? On listening in to ATC, other flights behind have also been given Shorter Routings, so who knows?

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Late cancellation of STAR (FAJS), what's the point?

#16

Postby Moertoe Pilut » Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:31 pm

Night freight flying is more relaxed, no SID's and STAR's and mostly routing direct to the center course fix. I have noticed that if ATC changes their plan they tell us track miles to touchdown. I had this last week when cleared direct to the center fix for 03R and than got vectors for 03L. With the track miles to touchdown it was easy to make a plan and adjust the profile. So in short, yes I think it has improved :thumbs:
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Re: Late cancellation of STAR (FAJS), what's the point?

#17

Postby Joeatc » Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:11 pm

Moertoe Pilut wrote:yes I think it has improved :thumbs:

Ok, I will give feedback :Like:

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Re: Late cancellation of STAR (FAJS), what's the point?

#18

Postby Moertoe Pilut » Wed Feb 03, 2016 6:46 pm

Thanks Joe, much appreciated! If there's anything that the boys and girls from ATC want us (the night prowlers) to change, please let me know and I'll spread the word.
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Re: Late cancellation of STAR (FAJS), what's the point?

#19

Postby Joeatc » Wed Feb 03, 2016 7:16 pm

:welcome:


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