RVSM airspace

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Moertoe Pilut
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RVSM airspace

#1

Postby Moertoe Pilut » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:09 pm

I used to operate in Europe on RVSM equipped non certified aircraft in the beginning of RVSM. As RVSM came into effect in Europe we used to get asked by ATC if we were RVSM. Our usual reply was "TLX123 is RVSM equipped not certified" To our amazement every time, we were allowed by ATC to fly RVSM levels. When airspace was getting to congested, we were usually descended back down to non RVSM levels. Never any problems.

I know of a SA carrier here, who is RVSM equipped, non certified and basically operated the same as we did in those days. ATC was aware of the non certification and also cleared them up in RVSM airspace.

Months later, the SACAA finds out about this and k@ks out the operator. Now how does this work??
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RVSM airspace

#2

Postby four engine jock » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:39 pm

RVSM equipped and RVSM certified are two different things.
Unless youâ??re certified they should not allow any aircraft to operate within RVSM airspace.
But then many ATC just accept you if file RVSM and donâ??t even ask.
We did it for years!!!
.

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Re: RVSM airspace

#3

Postby Moertoe Pilut » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:45 pm

I don't think that is the case, wish some ATC guys could clear that up.
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Re: RVSM airspace

#4

Postby four engine jock » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:08 pm

Well itâ??s very simple for South Africa.
First you apply to the CAA for an RVSM Certificate.
You must prove that the aircraft is RVSM equipped.
Then there is a form that you must fill out and send to ATNS with a date that you will do the RVSM monitoring from AIRINC ( $2600 per aircraft) . This can be a problem due to the fact that you have to get a date from AIRINC. Airinc then send the approval to ATNS.
It is time consuming but pretty straight forward. I have done several aircraft.

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Re: RVSM airspace

#5

Postby four engine jock » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:14 pm

Most late model B727â??s providing that they have the correct DADC are RVSM equipped.
Itâ??s usually in the flight manual.
The problem with operating a non-certified aircraft in RVSM airspace is getting caught doing so.
We operated a NON RVSM certified aircraft for a few years in European Airspace and all they ever ask was if we were certified. We always said yes! And we filed it as RVSM.

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Re: RVSM airspace

#6

Postby four engine jock » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:35 pm

go to : atns.co.za/arma-rvsm/about-arma

Here is all the info you need. I hope.

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Re: RVSM airspace

#7

Postby Moertoe Pilut » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:39 pm

Not really but I understand what you're saying. As far as I understand the legislation, if not certified but equipped, it can be up to ATC to let the aircraft fly RVSM levels and has nothing to do with the CAA. I could be wrong, but an ATCO would know...
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Re: RVSM airspace

#8

Postby four engine jock » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:50 pm

You do have a valid point.And your right. Its up to ATC.
I operate a B727VIP at this moment. No RVSM cert. Its on a Military Cert. And we operate in RVSM Airsapce. But then State Aircraft are exempted.

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Re: RVSM airspace

#9

Postby Moertoe Pilut » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:56 pm

[quote=""four engine jock""]You do have a valid point.And your right. Its up to ATC.
I operate a B727VIP at this moment. No RVSM cert. Its on a Military Cert. And we operate in RVSM Airsapce. But then State Aircraft are exempted.[/quote]Hence my question about the CAA. The said operator who got "punished" by the CAA meanwhile did their flight certification months ago and was cleared by the test, is awaiting the RVSM certificates. At least that's what I was told....
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Re: RVSM airspace

#10

Postby avi-addict » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:30 am

Okay, for those like me who's not familiar with aviation terminology, RVSM stands for . . . .



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If you can't convince them, confuse them or cast a spell over them.  I'm the witch, then there's the cat and the broom . . .

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Re: RVSM airspace

#11

Postby Raffles » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:55 am

avi-addict wrote:Okay, for those like me who's not familiar with aviation terminology, RVSM stands for . . . .



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Antie, I think brooms are exempted.
Hindsight is what you see from the tail gunner's position. :D

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Re: RVSM airspace

#12

Postby Moertoe Pilut » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:03 pm

[quote=""Raffles""]Antie, I think brooms are exempted.[/quote]No they still need to be BCAS equipped.
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Re: RVSM airspace

#13

Postby Joeatc » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:11 pm

This is a bit old but no, we don't get to decide. ATC has to follow the rules. If you're not properly equipped you don't get to fly in the airspace! If there was a sep loss or some incident then ATC would be burned for allowing aircraft in without the proper equipment. What probably happened was because it was all still new the minimums were not that tight at the time and exceptions could be made. Today you won't get away with it... unless it was inadvertently ... like 4ej alluded to. :dance:

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Re: RVSM airspace

#14

Postby Raffles » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:16 pm

Yessir, very strict now.

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Re: RVSM airspace

#15

Postby Bell 407 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:33 pm

Just asking: Could someone bullsh1t their way into an ATC area by saying they met the requirements for RVSM and would ATC know if they were lying?

Is there anything received on the radar decode that confirms RVSM for the ATC people?

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Re: RVSM airspace

#16

Postby Raffles » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:39 pm

Certified aircraft are in a database which they could check so it's best not to BS. I don't think they will know whether or not the crew is certified.

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Re: RVSM airspace

#17

Postby Joeatc » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:47 pm

Yes, we could pick up the aerie if it is not.

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Re: RVSM airspace

#18

Postby Raffles » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:48 pm

Sorry about the quality, my phone camera didn't work so good with all of the screenshots.
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Re: RVSM airspace

#19

Postby Joeatc » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:59 am

Throw in some RNP requirements and then it gets tricky to BS your way around :smile2:

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Re: RVSM airspace

#20

Postby Joeatc » Mon May 29, 2017 9:18 am

I see from 2018, not sure of the exact date, but if your aircraft is not RNAV/ GNSS/ RNP equipped/ certified.... you will not be allowed to enter UAE airspace. It will be extended throughout the region as time goes on. I attended a lecture yesterday on the implementation of a Euro control type agreement in the Middle East. Iraq is going to be part of this system. New airways have been implemented to avoid the conflict areas and AFTM will be introduced throughout the region. Have a look on FR24 at the traffic to and from Europe that is currently routing through Iran. Its insane !


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